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Souseiseki （ ゜▽゜）
Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 3554
Location: confirmed. Sending supplies.
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>> (Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:42 pm) |
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After waxing fanatical about
SnU on another forum, I figured I ought to cross-post my stuff from
there over here, since it's relevant to the discussion of quality VNs.
| CaptainGinyu: |
| Is Saya no Uta a hentai VN? Wikipedia just says it has "horror elements.." |
It contains hentai, but it's definitely not ero in my book. If anything, I'd say it's the exact opposite.
I can't recommend Saya no Uta...and yet I can't recommend it enough.
It's probably the most disturbing thing I've ever read and I found
myself pining for brain bleach an entire week after I read it, yet it's
such an amazing work of literature on so many levels. It's definitely
not recommended for the faint of heart, and even those who don't
consider themselves faint of heart should seriously consider whether
it's something they want to explore. The Wikipedia article on SnU has
copious spoilers, and if you feel that it's something you might have
trouble stomaching, I'd actually encourage you to read a plot summary
before reading the actual thing, since having knowledge of what you're
going to experience beforehand would dull the impact of the story to
minimize damage to your sanity. I've always felt that if a work is
executed well, it should still be enjoyable to read even without all of
its secrets unrevealed, and Saya no Uta is no exception. In retrospect,
the parts about it that I found the most horrifying are parts that
you'd never expect to terrify you based on a plot summary. It's that
good.
SPOILERS OF MANY PLOT POINTS APPEAR IN THE FOLLOWING WALL OF TEXT
| Veer: |
| fumi murders his friends and eats people (laughs) |
This, I feel, was one of the most interesting parts of the VN:
Fuminori's slow transformation into a complete (figurative) monster. At
the beginning of the story, Fuminori can obviously be distinguished as a
human protagonist, and while he certainly isn't affable, his actions
and the motivations behind them are easy to understand, and even feel
sympathy for. When he emotionally crushes Yoh by giving her a heartless
rejection, his actions certainly aren't right,
but it's hard to condemn him for them. After all, he is simply trying
to avoid what he perceives to be a disgusting monster, and treating her
like dirt is the only way he can get his ex-friends out of his life. He
does his utmost to make it brief, and the abuse is entirely
non-physical. He even acknowledges in the back of his mind (and
expresses a twinge of regret) that the creature he is now chasing out of
his life was once a friend. And then, toward the end of the VN, he
pushes his ex-friend Koji down into the well to meet certain death, a
premeditated act that he planned and committed with pure glee. And
then, there's a realization: somewhere, between these two points in
time, something, somewhere, went totally and horribly wrong.
I think one of the things that makes the transformation most interesting
is that, like his rejection of Yoh, most of Fuminori's actions are
committed and narrated in a way that makes the reader sympathetic to
them. Even the act of cannibalism, while certainly horrifying, isn't
something that one can easily condemn him for; his descent into the
practice is so slow and innocent that it's hard to realize where things
go wrong. I think that's one of the things that struck me most about
SnU: it managed to make Fuminori's adoption of the practice of
cannibalism seem innocent. The narration required to do this is beautiful beyond words.
I think that pinning down the one point at which Fuminori's
transformation from sympathetic and tragic hero to complete monster
became totally complete was around a part that's best described by a CG
that is entirely normal-looking to anyone who hasn't read the VN:
In fact, I think that this is the most terrifying image that we see of
Saya (or anything like her) throughout the entire VN (even if you
include the grubs that are technically not Saya but allegedly identical
to her). I think it's notable in large part because this is one part
where the reader sees EGGS-ACTLY
what Fuminori sees. He looks upon Saya (in her human form) and
realizes the unspeakable horrors that Saya has subjected Yoh to, a fate
far, far worse than death. He sees the hatred that burns in her eyes,
and the cruel sadistic pleasure of knowing Yoh's suffering. He sees
what can only be described as a completely monster in all but
(ironically) the literal sense. And, as he gazes into that face, he likes what he sees.
The fact that, despite all of the ugly, disgusting, and frightening images in Saya no Uta, that I could find this
to be the most terrifying image of them all, speaks more to the power
of the VN's story-telling than any written description I can muster.
I can't recommend Saya no Uta. And yet I can't recommend it enough.
Not a day goes by that I don't regret reading it, and yet as a piece of
media it's absolutely superb from start to finish. The story, the
writing, the visuals, the music, and the way in which they are knit
together can be described as little less than flawless. |
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Kintak ヽ(´ー｀)ﾉ
Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 2509
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| >> (Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:51 pm) |
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| Souseiseki: |
| bigass wall o text |
I just simply can't recommend it enough. A story that is so good that I
literally can't stop reading it is outstanding. A story so tragic that
it emotionally ruined me for like 5 days is not EGGS-ACTLY wanted, but god damn does it have to be amazing to do that.
Really, I played SnU straight through. I don't remember EGGS-ACTLY how long that was but it was like 3 to 5
hours. That's usually impossible for how ADHD I am. Every ending had
its own victory and its own regret and it was just enthralling.
It really does leave a deep impact. I think everyone should get a chance
to feel it, regardless of how unpleasant some aspects may be. |
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i has no skill （ ゜▽゜）
Joined: 17 May 2007
Posts: 2433
Location: CRIIIIT RAAAWCKEEEET
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| >> (Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:15 pm) |
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Fuck you both for making me break my nice round post count number to post at six in the morning.
(yup, spoilers below this point)
That fucking image. It is that portrait of Saya and everything that builds up to it that makes you swear at the game's
developers out loud. The pinnacle of the Lovecraftian horror effect. It
is the simple, brutal knowledge of what Saya really is and what she has
done, in gruesome stark contrast to the face and the music, two things
that you originally welcomed with open arms when you first encountered
them. So in a sense, it is the extreme
feeling of betrayal. The strongest betrayal of the player's emotions in
any work of fiction I have ever heard of and which likely will not be
surpassed in my lifetime.
For the rest of the game, I felt
a growing thirst for a kind of primitive, bloodthirsty vengeance. But
it was really something much more than that. And then at one point, the
game itself explained my pitch
black emotions to me. Saya needed to be destroyed, but not for the
reasons I had in mind. Not for revenge, not for justice, but simply
because she is so disturbing, so WRONG, that the only acceptable outcome
that could ever hope to put my mind at ease is to witness her complete
and utter extermination.
_________________
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KKompanion ｀ ◡ ´)
Joined: 04 May 2010
Posts: 449
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| >> (Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:32 pm) |
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You've all basically summed up anything I could have said about the story, unfortunately. That said,
it's all true. If not for the whole lolicon factor, I would go out and
force everyone I know to play this game. It's one of the best
presentations of story I've ever read, and the voices/soundtrack only
add to the deepening madness of it. SnU is, in my eyes, the perfect
example of a great VN. A
gripping, mind fucking story, a perfectly fitting soundtrack, voices and
"voices" that pull some serious shit on your psyche, and characters
that you can sympathize with, even if they are fucking insane.
It might've been that I was playing it until 5
in the morning, or that I actually am, but SnU literally made me feel
like I was insane and should be institutionalized. Any story that can do
that is something everyone should read at some point. Anything well
written enough to make one question their own mental sanity should be
treasured by everyone, not just wap niggers who 420 play VNs 'erry day. |
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Kintak ヽ(´ー｀)ﾉ
Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 2509
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| >> (Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:47 pm) |
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| i has no skill: |
Fuck you both for making me break my nice round post count number to post at six in the morning.
(yup, spoilers below this point)
That fucking image. It is that portrait of Saya and everything that builds up to it that makes you swear at the game's
developers out loud. The pinnacle of the Lovecraftian horror effect. It
is the simple, brutal knowledge of what Saya really is and what she has
done, in gruesome stark contrast to the face and the music, two things
that you originally welcomed with open arms when you first encountered
them. So in a sense, it is the extreme
feeling of betrayal. The strongest betrayal of the player's emotions in
any work of fiction I have ever heard of and which likely will not be
surpassed in my lifetime.
For the rest of the game, I felt
a growing thirst for a kind of primitive, bloodthirsty vengeance. But
it was really something much more than that. And then at one point, the
game itself explained my pitch
black emotions to me. Saya needed to be destroyed, but not for the
reasons I had in mind. Not for revenge, not for justice, but simply
because she is so disturbing, so WRONG, that the only acceptable outcome
that could ever hope to put my mind at ease is to witness her complete
and utter extermination. |
I felt quite the opposite. Saya and Fuminori lived for each other. They
cared only for one another and nothing else. Their actions were bizarre
and twisted, but also beautiful displays of affection and love.
Truly, Fuminori did not lose his "humanity", only his standard of what
was human. Likewise, Saya was originally a monster, but she became more
human than any other member of her kind. Love, empathy, and intelligence
are defining characteristics of humans, and they both expressed them in
spades. They just expressed the love and empathy portion toward each
other.
Hell, their humanity is evident even in the "bloom" end. What is more
human than changing the entire world to suit your own kind? To an
outside observer, it's a monstrous infection. To someone with the right
mindset, it's terraforming.
That's not to say other beings don't do such things, just that humans
aren't so high and mighty as they'd like to believe. The only difference
between "monster" and "comrade" is whose side you are on.
Oh and I gotta agree that the OST is plain  . It's probably more suited to THE GAME than any other OST I've heard. I've got it in my music collection and I am reminded of what I felt playing THE GAME whenever one of the songs comes up on shuffle.
http://www.yubtub.com/watch?v=BmG3-YUY4VA
This song, for example. It's not a bad song. On the contrary, it's a
very good song. However, it FEELS disgusting. I can't even put it into
words. It feels disgusting without being horrifying.
http://www.yubtub.com/watch?v=8Dx3KjQlJ9M
And this song right here. THIS SONG. This song DEFINES Saya no Uta. It
portrays such a profound sense of sadness, and yet it's wondrous at the
same time. I couldn't listen to anything but this song for days after
playing. |
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Souseiseki （ ゜▽゜）
Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 3554
Location: confirmed. Sending supplies.
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| >> (Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:24 pm) |
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| KKompanion: |
| voices and "voices" that pull some serious shit on your psyche |
The voices. Oh, the voices.
They're one of the first elements introduced in the story, you hear them
for the first time within minutes of playing, and yet the sheer
creepiness of them never, ever leaves. In fact, if anything it becomes more intense as you progress.
I think part of it might be that the first "reveal" of Saya's true form
comes through her voice. The thing is, going into that part, I knew
what was coming. I wasn't very far into the story before I realized
that I was being set up for a classic Twilight Zone twist; a guy with
warped senses sees beauty as horror, so what does that mean about the
one thing he sees as beauty? And, as if that wasn't enough, I actually
had a clear-cut spoiler thanks to Wikipedia. I didn't read the entire
article, but I glanced over it, and my eye caught the line "ordinary
observers are able to see that Saya is actually a hideous creature" and
this only confirmed my suspicions. I knew what she was, I anticipated
it, and yet, the first time hearing her true voice...
Just remembering it sends chills down my spine.
In some ways, the aftermath (life after reading SnU) made me feel like a
little kid again, and not in the good sense that you usually hear. It
brought back memories of sleeping with the covers pulled over my head,
in terror of what laid in the dark, and afraid the following morning to
peak my head out for fear of what sight might greet my eyes.
Probably the single most disturbing scene that I remember is the part
where Saya performs her "experiment" on Fuminori's neighbor, and he
wakes up with his senses warped, seeing his house transformed into a
fleshy nightmare, and then beating two "monsters" to death in his
crazed, confused state, hearing their cries and pleas for mercy. I was
startled, jarred, disturbed. I'd been told going in that Saya no Uta
was something that would fuck with my head, and everything up to that
point had been far from tame, with its fair share of mind fuckery, but nothing
could have prepared me for that scene, the scene where you are fed
every indication, every message, except the explicit statement that a
man, a man who was the definition of reason and rationality only hours
before, is beating his wife and child to death.
Deep in the back of my head, for nearly the entire week after playing
through SnU, that was the fear that lurked in the back of my mind: the
fear that I would, through some dysfunction of my mind, go berserk and
perform some unspeakably horrible act, all while convinced that I was
acting in self-defense. Everything in my rationale mind told me that
there was no chance in hell of this happening, that it was a completely
irrational fear, and yet I could not chase those thoughts from my head. So when you say
| KKompanion: |
| SnU literally made me feel like I was insane and should be institutionalized. |
I know EGGS-ACTLY what you mean.
| ヽ(´ー｀)ﾉ: |
I gotta agree that the OST is plain . It's probably more suited to THE GAME than any other OST I've heard. I've got it in my music collection and I am reminded of what I felt playing THE GAME whenever one of the songs comes up on shuffle.
http://www.yubtub.com/watch?v=BmG3-YUY4VA
This song, for example. It's not a bad song. On the contrary, it's a
very good song. However, it FEELS disgusting. I can't even put it into
words. It feels disgusting without being horrifying.
http://www.yubtub.com/watch?v=8Dx3KjQlJ9M
And this song right here. THIS SONG. This song DEFINES Saya no Uta. It
portrays such a profound sense of sadness, and yet it's wondrous at the
same time. I couldn't listen to anything but this song for days after
playing. |
I think I might go crazy if I ever added the SnU OST to my music
library, especially if it managed to shuffle its way into my ears when I
wasn't expecting it. Definitely not clicking those links since it's
currently 1:20 AM and this thread has already given me enough nightmare
fuel as it is but I'm sure you're right (and I may check in the morning,
or afternoon, when I am more sane). |
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i has no skill （ ゜▽゜）
Joined: 17 May 2007
Posts: 2433
Location: CRIIIIT RAAAWCKEEEET
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| >> (Mon Nov 29, 2010 6:12 am) |
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Seems it also has different effects on different people.
Kintak looks at it from multiple
perspectives. Sous dreads the thought that his own sanity might suffer a
similar fate somehow. I felt embittered and vindictive (and the Bloom
ending just made it worse).
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Kintak ヽ(´ー｀)ﾉ
Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 2509
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| >> (Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:30 am) |
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Seems I empathized with
Fuminori and Saya much more than you guys did. Though I felt suspicious
of Saya and her actions, questioning whether or not she was manipulating
Fuminori, I've concluded that that was not the case. Saya's and
Fuminori's actions during the asylum and NITROGEN ends proved to me that
they felt honest-to-goodness love for each other. Saya's refusal to
allow Fuminori to see or hear her in the asylum for fear of Fuminori
being horrified was evidence enough. Saya grasping for Fuminori during
the Kouji end was heartbreaking.
There was no good end, though I liked bloom the best. |
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